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Chris Yeung

Martin Lee

Founding Democratic Party chairman Martin Lee  will never give up fighting for democracy

You led a protest on the Legco building balcony at midnight on June 30,  1997. What was on your mind?

What was very much on my mind was that we would be thrown out of  Legco and replaced by the provisional Legco, which was clearly illegal.   We were very much aware of that. At the end of the year we could be re-elected.  That was mainly what I said: 'We shall return.'

Do you have a plan for July 1 this year?

I have suggested we should be there again. That would be midnight on June 30. All the legislators from the democratic camp should go there.

Will you be celebrating or protesting?

Maybe a combination of both ... We should celebrate that it is now 'one country, one system'.   If you look at mainland China today, you don't find socialism. It is now capitalism. But it's no longer Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong, because ever since the July 1, 2003, demonstration, Beijing changed its policy for Hong Kong, from a relatively hands-off policy to a hands-on one. We all know the person in charge  ... is Vice-President Zeng Qinghong .  The 'Big Zeng' makes important decisions  ... and the 'Small Tsang' merely implements them.

Some people feared you and Szeto Wah  would go to jail  after 1997. Looking back, what were your fears?

I remember in June 1997 there were thousands of foreign reporters in Hong Kong. One question they often asked me was: 'Mr Lee, are you going to be put into prison come  July 1?' I said I didn't think that was likely, but I would be a fool to say that it will never happen.   If you look back on the original Article 23 [national security] legislation, if that had been passed into law, it would have seriously impinged on some of our basic freedoms: religious freedom, freedom of association, freedom of the press. If that had been passed, how could you rule out that certain legislators would not be imprisoned under the new law?

What has come as the biggest surprise to you in the past 10 years?

It was the economic downturn.   People thought political freedom would be under threat. Nobody thought the economy would suddenly collapse.

Anything you feel most disappointed about?

The most disappointing thing is the indefinite postponement of democracy.

Has the succession of the new leadership under Hu Jintao  and Wen Jiabao  made any difference?

People said to me some years ago when Zhu Rongji became premier,  'Martin, you'll be fine. They will let you return to mainland China'. I said I'd just wait and see. Of course, he didn't do it. When Wen took over, people said 'this is a  great chance. He's a liberal-minded leader. Hu is also liberal minded'. I certainly do not perceive them that way.

The Democratic Party was the most popular party before the handover. Is it on  a decline?

It is. The Civic Party has taken over. It's not a bad thing because we have the same goals.   Under this system of election, it's not a bad thing when there's a strong democratic partner. Without the Civic Party, we would have had  to split our list anyway.   It could be said that the emergence of the Civic Party is not good for the Democratic Party. But it's certainly good for the cause of democracy.

You were leader of the Democratic Party for eight years. Do you feel sad with the changes?

No. People will remember Audrey Eu [Yuet-mee]  got into Legco because of a by-election after Gary Cheng [Kai-nam]  got into trouble. It's a very crucial decision the Democratic Party had to make. It's whether we should put up our own candidate or support Audrey. I strongly suggested we should support Audrey because we knew if we were to put up our own candidate, other democrat candidates would run against us. That would split the votes and we would lose that seat.   Audrey won.  When the Article 23 bill was later withdrawn, these barristers then ran for election in 2004. They did very well and hence the Civic Party.   I never regretted that decision.

You were the most popular politician. Now people like Audrey Eu and Alan Leong have taken over. Is it difficult for you to cope with the changes in popularity?

It all depends on how you place yourself. I put democracy first, Democratic Party second and Martin Lee third. I take it easy.

What role would you - or could you - still play in politics?

I will continue to do what I'm doing to fight for democracy. I intend to continue to travel abroad and tell our friends overseas how things are in Hong Kong.

Is it becoming more difficult to get an audience overseas because, first, they are losing interest and, secondly, they are more concerned about their relations with China?

Absolutely. I have lost hope in Britain. British policy for Hong Kong can be summarised in two words: China trade. I think the US government, Australia and Canada are  still concerned.

You've been in politics since 1985. Is politics still fresh and exciting to you?

Not exciting. I think it's a job which remains undone. I entered politics after thinking it over for a long, long time. I asked myself this question back in the early 1980s: what is the single most important thing to the people of Hong Kong in terms of 1997? The answer was freedom.   So how can I help to preserve people's freedoms? The answer was  the rule of law. Then how do you maintain the rule of law? The answer was making sure the judiciary continues to be independent and the laws that are to be passed in the legislature are good laws. So democracy came in.  I haven't won, but I certainly have not lost.   The day I give up, that day I lose. I don't give up.

We are close to the 10th anniversary. What are your predictions for Hong Kong in 2017?

Democracy is bound to come. The only question is when.  The whole world is marching towards democracy, human rights and rule of law. I can't see the leaders of China succeeding to block the tide of democracy for long.

You have promoted the idea of democracy for more than 20 years.  Do you agree that Hong Kong people are quite pragmatic?

Hong Kong people have never failed to pleasantly surprise me.   The Tung government had certainly under-estimated public sentiment. Donald Tsang [Yam-kuen] tried not to commit the same mistake.    He has told me, to my face politely, 'I'm not going to help to get the people of HK out to the streets like my predecessor, Tung Chee-hwa'. You can see he's living up to that. He's been  careful not to do anything wrong.

Are you optimistic Donald Tsang will  bring democracy at the earliest possible time?

We'll be there to help him achieve that. I remember vividly what Zhu Rongji said when he became premier. He said, 'there should be 100 coffins, 99 of them for corrupt officers, one for me if I cannot get this right'. He didn't go to that coffin. But he certainly didn't get it right.  Imagine if Zhu  had been democratically elected by the people in China; how could he not succeed with his vision or reform?

Do you think Mr Tsang is genuinely committed to finding a ultimate solution?

I have absolutely no reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt. I can even believe that he means well. But he lacks the backing of people.



Eye Witness